It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:34 pm

All times are UTC






Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 744 posts ] 


Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:10 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:27 pm
Posts: 1814
Images: 200
I think 600w SON is the Highways Agency standard for lighting dual four lane motorways from the verges now. So wasteful, and the hypocrites think they can offset this with LED traffic lights and part night lighting. Pull the other one.


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:56 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 1529
Images: 12
It's so ''Animal Farm'' of the Government. One rule for one and a different rule for another. If the Government aren't doing anything, why on earth should us citizens save their greenhouse gas emissions and be forced into buying eco bulbs and eco cars?


I'm sure the massive increase in electrical consumption will be blamed on us despite the ban on Incandescent 100+ watt lamps. It'll be a big disaster during the next decade as most of out fossil fueled power stations are due to be decommissioned. I suspect most are constantly running at full capacity now as well.

How many times do you drive past one and see steam coming from all the towers? Drax and Eggborough are like this everytime i've gone past them. It's not right and needs to stop before it puts us in darkness.


Also, the daft thing about it is when you mention this to anyone, they look at you daft and don't care. My parents don't believe me when I say these new Albannies (spelling) on Austhorpe Road might be running 250w MH lamps from 150w SON Alpha 8's and prior to them, 90w SOX Alpha 9's.



mazeteam wrote:
Some bits of the M62 are getting "poor mans widening" treatment... whereby the hard shoulders are used as normal running lanes at busy times, and layby's added every few hundred meters. Amongst my gripes against this include that brighter lighting is installed, and that if you break down in a section between the layby's then you're ******


I heard that and I have serious concerns. Especially when it comes to the slip roads.

I hope the hard shoulder markings are changed at slip roads. All it'll take is someone who doesn't know the HS can be used and they go turning off the motorway in the normal manner and cause a crash.


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:59 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:27 pm
Posts: 1814
Images: 200
Well, it's nuclear power stations that are also at the end of their lives too, hence the recent fast track mentioned on the news. Basically, all but one nuclear reactors will have shut down by 2023, which is something like 7GW of power that needs to be found over the next 15 years to replace current nuclear alone.

Back on topic though, I cannot see why 600w SON must be necessary nowadays apart from British Standards getting more ridiculous. The most wasteful motorway lighting many years ago was a stretch of 400w mercury motorway lighting at the bottom end of the M1 I believe. If 400w mercury was bright enough for lighting a dual three lane motorway, then why isn't 250w SON considered bright enough, like in the Netherlands? I know of some wide off-motorway road layouts which are lit exceptionally brightly with 250w SON at 12m height. 250w SON at 15m height is still very effective. It should be 150w SON for slip roads and 250w SON for the mainline, nothing more is necessary.


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:31 pm 
Offline
Member
Random avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:20 am
Posts: 1047
Location: Cleveleys nr Blackpool
The M6 between J30 and J32 is a 4-lane motorway and is lit with dual-optic Thorn Rocades. These are extremely bright and I think are 2x400w. What's ridiculous is whether you continue north on the M6 past J32 or you turn off onto the M55, after the junction you are almost immediately plunged into total darkness which after being bathed in extremely-bright orange light is very disconcerting and it takes a while for your eyes to adjust. Now you can't tell me that is safe! In the time taken for your eyes to re-adjust a nasty accident could be caused by your impaired vision. Why is there no transition lighting, ie a few columns of, say, 150w SON spaced increasingly further apart until the lighting finishes completely? Without this it's like being in a really brightly-lit room and then somebody, without warning, switching the light out except there are cars flying about around you at 70mph! Ludicrous!  :x


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:03 pm 
Offline
Member
Random avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:49 pm
Posts: 814
Images: 108
One of the motorways that runs past Luton from the M25 has new Sapphires on new columns in central reservation, and also more Sapphires on the verges, on really stupid clumsy looking brackets. I just hope they aren't 600w SON but they are quite high so could well be.

The government are telling us to stop using 60 for washing machines, then go and install a load of 600w SON lanterns?! Crazy.

_________________
"I used to rule the world... Now I sweep the streets I used to own."
Remembering GEC.


Last edited by Indust on Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:41 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 1529
Images: 12
Oooooohhhhhh i've found something interesting.


Orange sodium catenary lighting illuminates the M62 passing through the M61 interchange. I really love this image.
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/15/18.jpg

Same area, as it was constructed:
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/15/27.jpg

Again, showing other lanterns:
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/15/15.jpg

Same as above but earlier:
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/15/26.jpg

M62 passing the farmhouse in the middle, note the road is unlit.
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/15/11.jpg

Looking west from the Pennine Way overbridge at junction 22. The right hand carriageway now has a fourth climbing lane.
Again no lanterns.
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/15/13.jpg

Amazing find I stumbled upon. Photo's from http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/gallery15.shtml and i've not hot linked any for copyright reasons.


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:19 am 
Offline
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:48 am
Posts: 6227
Images: 1729
I can't see those images... it's likely the server has a .htaccess script blocking direct links to the images in addition to hotlinks... it tried to direct here http://www.cbrd.co.uk/img/logo.gif but is unable to (on my browser anyway)
"Redirect Loop
Redirection limit for this URL exceeded.  Unable to load the requested page.  This may be caused by cookies that are blocked."

Stelmer wrote:
It's so ''Animal Farm'' of the Government. One rule for one and a different rule for another. If the Government aren't doing anything, why on earth should us citizens save their greenhouse gas emissions and be forced into buying eco bulbs and eco cars?


To be honest, I don't buy into all this "we're heating up the planet" crap. The earth goes in cycles, you only need to go to the right museum and ask one of the clever looking people that wander around and they'd be able to tell you this can be seen from looking at rocks. We've had at least two ice ages, and I think the same number of "hot periods"... and we're talking about many many centuries before humans were around, so unless T-rex's farted a lot then the planet heating up wouldn't be directly caused by the animals on the planet.

Anyway, the whole "one rule for us another for them" is another reason I won't go out of my way to reduce emissions. If I need bright energy-consuming lights for working, then I'll damn well use them... I don't see MP's not using planes to go from one city to the city a few miles down the road. And then there's China and the US.


Quote:
I'm sure the massive increase in electrical consumption will be blamed on us despite the ban on Incandescent 100+ watt lamps. It'll be a big disaster during the next decade as most of out fossil fueled power stations are due to be decommissioned. I suspect most are constantly running at full capacity now as well.

How many times do you drive past one and see steam coming from all the towers? Drax and Eggborough are like this everytime i've gone past them. It's not right and needs to stop before it puts us in darkness.


Well Drax is the biggest coal-fired power station in western europe, and provides electric for something like 10% of the UK. Eggbrough never used to run constantly, but it has been doing so for a good few years now. Ferrybridge is one of the "reserve" stations, and is only used in the peaks... with Ferrybridge you know when it's running full pelt because of black smoke coming from the stacks; if there's only steam coming from the towers then it's not burning fuel and is cooling down. But if you get on an East Coast train from York and head south (at least to p'bro) then you see lots of power stations, Drax, around by Eggbrough with Ferrybridge in the distance, (Thorpe marsh at Barnby Dun can be seen, but that's semi-demolished), and there's two or three that can be seen between Retford and Newark - the closest being at Cottam south of gainsbro', but I'm sure one is on the other side of Lincoln, and on really clear days at grantham you can sometimes see steam clouds from Ratcliffe-on-soar.


Quote:
mazeteam wrote:
Some bits of the M62 are getting "poor mans widening" treatment... whereby the hard shoulders are used as normal running lanes at busy times, and layby's added every few hundred meters. Amongst my gripes against this include that brighter lighting is installed, and that if you break down in a section between the layby's then you're ******


I heard that and I have serious concerns. Especially when it comes to the slip roads.

I hope the hard shoulder markings are changed at slip roads. All it'll take is someone who doesn't know the HS can be used and they go turning off the motorway in the normal manner and cause a crash.

I really don't think the Active Traffic Management schemes have been thought through... it's just a case of "ooh we can get more capacity without spending money on widening" without thinking of how it'll affect the people actually driving on it... and that includes the reduced speed limit (likely to be 40mph) during ATM times when the HS is open for normal running. And also, what happens if there's an accident and ambulances need to get to the crash? they won't be able to use the hard shoulder because there'll be cars and trucks on it.

_________________
Tesco brings all the mums to the yard...
and they're like "do you have your club card"
Image


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:34 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 1529
Images: 12
mazeteam wrote:
I can't see those images... it's likely the server has a .htaccess script blocking direct links to the images in addition to hotlinks... it tried to direct here http://www.cbrd.co.uk/img/logo.gif but is unable to (on my browser anyway)
"Redirect Loop
Redirection limit for this URL exceeded.  Unable to load the requested page.  This may be caused by cookies that are blocked."

Stelmer wrote:
It's so ''Animal Farm'' of the Government. One rule for one and a different rule for another. If the Government aren't doing anything, why on earth should us citizens save their greenhouse gas emissions and be forced into buying eco bulbs and eco cars?


To be honest, I don't buy into all this "we're heating up the planet" crap. The earth goes in cycles, you only need to go to the right museum and ask one of the clever looking people that wander around and they'd be able to tell you this can be seen from looking at rocks. We've had at least two ice ages, and I think the same number of "hot periods"... and we're talking about many many centuries before humans were around, so unless T-rex's farted a lot then the planet heating up wouldn't be directly caused by the animals on the planet.

Anyway, the whole "one rule for us another for them" is another reason I won't go out of my way to reduce emissions. If I need bright energy-consuming lights for working, then I'll damn well use them... I don't see MP's not using planes to go from one city to the city a few miles down the road. And then there's China and the US.


Quote:
I'm sure the massive increase in electrical consumption will be blamed on us despite the ban on Incandescent 100+ watt lamps. It'll be a big disaster during the next decade as most of out fossil fueled power stations are due to be decommissioned. I suspect most are constantly running at full capacity now as well.

How many times do you drive past one and see steam coming from all the towers? Drax and Eggborough are like this everytime i've gone past them. It's not right and needs to stop before it puts us in darkness.


Well Drax is the biggest coal-fired power station in western europe, and provides electric for something like 10% of the UK. Eggbrough never used to run constantly, but it has been doing so for a good few years now. Ferrybridge is one of the "reserve" stations, and is only used in the peaks... with Ferrybridge you know when it's running full pelt because of black smoke coming from the stacks; if there's only steam coming from the towers then it's not burning fuel and is cooling down. But if you get on an East Coast train from York and head south (at least to p'bro) then you see lots of power stations, Drax, around by Eggbrough with Ferrybridge in the distance, (Thorpe marsh at Barnby Dun can be seen, but that's semi-demolished), and there's two or three that can be seen between Retford and Newark - the closest being at Cottam south of gainsbro', but I'm sure one is on the other side of Lincoln, and on really clear days at grantham you can sometimes see steam clouds from Ratcliffe-on-soar.


Quote:
mazeteam wrote:
Some bits of the M62 are getting "poor mans widening" treatment... whereby the hard shoulders are used as normal running lanes at busy times, and layby's added every few hundred meters. Amongst my gripes against this include that brighter lighting is installed, and that if you break down in a section between the layby's then you're ******


I heard that and I have serious concerns. Especially when it comes to the slip roads.

I hope the hard shoulder markings are changed at slip roads. All it'll take is someone who doesn't know the HS can be used and they go turning off the motorway in the normal manner and cause a crash.

I really don't think the Active Traffic Management schemes have been thought through... it's just a case of "ooh we can get more capacity without spending money on widening" without thinking of how it'll affect the people actually driving on it... and that includes the reduced speed limit (likely to be 40mph) during ATM times when the HS is open for normal running. And also, what happens if there's an accident and ambulances need to get to the crash? they won't be able to use the hard shoulder because there'll be cars and trucks on it.



Try this for the images:
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/photo/gallery15.shtml
I think there's something up with the internet as I can access some sites like this forum but Wikipedia does not load.

Was looking for dates of Eggborough and Drax decommissioning dates. I'm sure one of them is in 2011.


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:19 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:27 pm
Posts: 1814
Images: 200
People would take the government and environment more seriously if it weren't one rule for them and another rule for us. There is also the issue in this country of the government sometimes seeming to use the environment as an excuse for a lack of investment. For example, councils may say climate change will put increasing pressure on drainage systems, and that flooding will become a bigger problem. Nothing to do with the councils making big cut backs to drain purging and road sweeping.

And yes, Drax does supply about 10% of Britain's energy needs.

Now, during recent lectures I have been told that Britain produces 2% of the world's CO2 emissions. Let's say Britain's population is 60 million compared with a global population of 6 billion. That means Britain has 1% of the world's population. Not an exact correlation, I know, but consider that there are a couple of billion people in the world who live in genuine poverty (not British poverty of not being able to afford a Sky box). There are bigger fish to fry than Britain, although the argument is that Britain should set an example. Cough, motorway lighting. I believe the European Union set a target for developed member states to be producing 20% of their electricity from renewables by 2020. However, Britain has somehow got away with only having to meet a target of 15% by 2020. What message does that send out about Britain? I think it's because when the target was set, Britain was already lagging behind its European neighbours when it came to renewables. We're good at bringing up the rear in Europe nowadays; Europe always has to take the lead and Britain drag its heels.

Getting back on topic, apart from the electrical power consumption of new motorway lighting and active traffic management systems, consider the sheer scale of steel that has to be manufactured for the dozens of overhead gantries or the thousands of lighting columns. Producing steel isn't exactly clean business. And apart from the fact that to conform to British Standards verge mounted lighting for a dual four lane motorway would have to be 600w SON rather than being able to get away with 400w SON in the central reservation (50% energy consumption increase), verge mounted lighting by default requires twice as many columns and twice as much cabling. So much for saving the planet.


Top
 Profile  Personal album 
 
 Post subject: Re: Motorway Lighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:38 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:46 pm
Posts: 540
Images: 11
Location: Colchester, Essex
Gramma6 wrote:
The M6 between J30 and J32 is a 4-lane motorway and is lit with dual-optic Thorn Rocades. These are extremely bright and I think are 2x400w. What's ridiculous is whether you continue north on the M6 past J32 or you turn off onto the M55, after the junction you are almost immediately plunged into total darkness which after being bathed in extremely-bright orange light is very disconcerting and it takes a while for your eyes to adjust. Now you can't tell me that is safe! In the time taken for your eyes to re-adjust a nasty accident could be caused by your impaired vision. Why is there no transition lighting, ie a few columns of, say, 150w SON spaced increasingly further apart until the lighting finishes completely? Without this it's like being in a really brightly-lit room and then somebody, without warning, switching the light out except there are cars flying about around you at 70mph! Ludicrous!  :x

When I was at Uni (in the 1990s) I read a book about lighting design (well, the street lighting bits because that's what interested me!), and the subject of terminating lighting, and how to do it well, was discussed in great detail. They believed the best solution for twin or opposite lighting arrangement (i.e. double brackets along the central reservation, or pairs of columns placed opposite each other on each verge), was to deliberately illuminate a specific light-to-dark 'transition area' using just the light spilling over from the other carriageway. This would be achieved by ending the lighting on your side of the road before the lighting on the other side was ended. The overspill light from the other side would be enough to provide a lower level of illumination for the few seconds you need for your eyes to adjust to the dark.

As far as I understand, there are no such issues going from an unlit section to a lit section of road, so there is no need for a dark-to-light transition area when entering a lit section of road.

On an opposite arrangement, the columns on your side of the road would end sooner than the other side, and on a twin arrangement, the last few columns would have single brackets pointing to the other side. There would be no need to adjust the column spacings, and no need different wattage lamps.

Despite it being such a simple and, dare I say it, obvious solution, I don't ever recall seeing it in real life, either before I read that book, or since. :-(


Top
 Profile  
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 744 posts ] 

All times are UTC



You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 31 guests



Search for: